Leinster Hurling Championship

[Kevin]

Hi There,

Is there an official Offaly position on this Galway/Antrim into Leinster thing?

From a distance it sounds good, but I'm sure there are plenty of details I would have no view to.

Interested on any thoughts.

http://www.hoganstand.com/ArticleForm.aspx?ID=101639

Thanks!

[Plain of the Herbs]

It's being discussed at a special county board meeting tonight (Thursday) as well as the proposed adoption of the Kilkenny-style county championship.

Hi There,

Is there an official Offaly position on this Galway/Antrim into Leinster thing?

From a distance it sounds good, but I'm sure there are plenty of details I would have no view to.

Interested on any thoughts.

http://www.hoganstand.com/ArticleForm.aspx?ID=101639

Thanks!

[Lone Shark]

Apparently the County Board has decreed that we are opposed. I'd be interested to hear what were the key grounds for this decision, if anyone was in attendance?

(I'm not trying to suggest they were wrong by the way - I'd be unsure myself in the absence of all the facts, I'm simply curious)

[Plain of the Herbs]

Galway and Antrim’s coming into Leinster is still a fait accompli as far as I can see.

I can’t see any counties other than ourselves, Wexford and Dublin voting against it. Galway may yet vote in favour. The Munster counties will all vote for, because they’ll feel it’s good enough for Kilkenny. Most counties north of the Dublin – Galway line will vote for because it’s all a matter to them anyway.

If it was solely a Leinster council decision, as it probably should be, I’d have some hope that it would be rejected, but that seems most unlikely now.

Did I see where Laois are voting in favour on the basis that they’ve less chance of facing Galway (and another hiding) if Galway are in Leinster as opposed to the curren situation where they get them in the qualifiers every year?

Incidentally, the draws for the provincial championships are to be held in the middle of the week following the special congress.

[swiftpost]

Maybe I am missing something but I can't see the harm in these 2 counties joining the leinster championship?

[Sydthebeat]

Maybe I am missing something but I can't see the harm in these 2 counties joining the leinster championship?

nor i, maybe the devils in the details......

when will we know the reasons for opposition?

[Treasurer]

All the counties in the country can vote for or against it, but Leinster council will have the final say - though it's unlikely they'd over-ride a majority decision.

[Plain of the Herbs]

From rte.ie

GAA delegates voted this morning to include Galway and Antrim in a restructured Leinster hurling championship.
Dublin, Wexford and Offaly all spoke against the move at today's Special Congress at Croke Park.
When put to a vote however, approximately 80% of delegates voted in favour.
The new format will be in place for a three-year trial period.
Special Congress also accepted a fourth-tier in the hurling
championship, which will be known as the Lory Meagher Cup.
While the changes in the Hurling Championship were expected, the real surprise came when delegates voted in favour of dramatic changes in the playing rules at senior inter-county level.
The new rules are designed to reduce persistent fouling and will be brought in for an experimental period.
They will be included in the pre-league provincial competitions and the national football and hurling leagues.

This is as expected. The next thing is the draw which is on Wednesday evening on the telly. I've an awful feeling we'll get drawn against Antrim. Then expect the ballyhoo that 'poor' Antrim should get a home venue and we're no the road again.

The one thing about the draw is this. When Nickey Brennan and Padraig Duffy were conducting their roadshow promoting this, one of their suggestions was that, as Kilkenny would be seeded into the semi-finals (which is fair enough but really this is incase Galway, poor lambs, would draw the champions in the quarter final) only the quarter final draw would be made at this stage and that the semi-final draw not be made until after the quarter-finals were completed. This is incase Offaly or Wexford weredrawn to face Kilkenny in that round and done like the pair did this year and time their championship preparations to peak in July. In my opinio this would be wrong. The Munster draw is being made in full, so should the Leinster draw.

[GreatDayForTheParish]

Special Congress must be commended on their decision to allow Galway and Antrim play in the Leinster Championship. It is unquestionably the correct decision for both Offaly and more importantly for hurling. The selfishness that prevailed in the Offaly, Wexford and Dublin County Boards in opposing the proposals was, in my opinion, shameful. I will deride no one who wants to see their county succeed, we all on this website are guilty of being passionate about Offaly GAA, but one must also be aware of the needs and rights of other counties. We also have a responsibility to hurling as a sport. In both these aspects our county board failed themselves, Offaly GAA and hurling.
Galway and Antrim's inclusion in Leinster will not hurt Offaly hurling. The added addition of these two teams who are neither far superior or inferior to us will lead only to more competitive games. To be afraid of moving down the pecking order in Leinster is a puerile excuse. To be the best, to win an All-Ireland one must beat the best. Simple argument and to attempt to shield Offaly and Leinster from Galway is to admit our own inferiority. There is little reason for Offaly to be intimidated by Galway, challenging and bating them is a eminently achievable goal,. In all certainty the 2009 Leinster Hurling Championship should now be of greater benefit for Offaly hurling. At the very least it will be a significant improvement on this year's Leinster experience for Offaly - we beat Laois comprehensively, Kilkenny then beat us just as comprehensively. Nothing new there, little learned. It was the exact same in 2007.
Hurling is one of the finest games in the world, it is however burdened with a very small playing population. To have had two counties with the potential of Galway and Antrim continue to play in the pre-2009 situation would have been a travesty and the ultimate disservice to the hurling. Hurling needs more counties outside the big three winning more All-Irelands more regularly, it needs more competitive games, it needs Galway, it needs Joe Canning in Croke Park in September, it needs Antrim to improve,to build and to be a genuine force in decades to come. The decision taken by the GAA today can only help in the achievement of the above goals. The Leinster Hurling Championship could not have been allowed to continue in it's 2008 state. Kilkenny have enjoyed a deserved and utter monopoly of it for the last decade. Attendances for all games in the Leinster championship are down, falling and with no sign of improvement. In many respects it was dead, it was failing hurling. Tradition is a wonderful thing, it is after all what the GAA is built on, however in this instance it could not have been allowed to kill hurling in Leinster. Hurling is our heritage, it is ours to protect, ours to advance. That is what we must therefore do and extend our interests beyond our own county border. I commend completely the decision that Special Congress has taken today. They have done what is right. Simple.

[Lone Shark]

Special Congress must be commended on their decision to allow Galway and Antrim play in the Leinster Championship. It is unquestionably the correct decision for both Offaly and more importantly for hurling. The selfishness that prevailed in the Offaly, Wexford and Dublin County Boards in opposing the proposals was, in my opinion, shameful. I will deride no one who wants to see their county succeed, we all on this website are guilty of being passionate about Offaly GAA, but one must also be aware of the needs and rights of other counties. We also have a responsibility to hurling as a sport. In both these aspects our county board failed themselves, Offaly GAA and hurling.
Galway and Antrim's inclusion in Leinster will not hurt Offaly hurling. The added addition of these two teams who are neither far superior or inferior to us will lead only to more competitive games. To be afraid of moving down the pecking order in Leinster is a puerile excuse. To be the best, to win an All-Ireland one must beat the best. Simple argument and to attempt to shield Offaly and Leinster from Galway is to admit our own inferiority. There is little reason for Offaly to be intimidated by Galway, challenging and bating them is a eminently achievable goal,. In all certainty the 2009 Leinster Hurling Championship should now be of greater benefit for Offaly hurling. At the very least it will be a significant improvement on this year's Leinster experience for Offaly - we beat Laois comprehensively, Kilkenny then beat us just as comprehensively. Nothing new there, little learned. It was the exact same in 2007.
Hurling is one of the finest games in the world, it is however burdened with a very small playing population. To have had two counties with the potential of Galway and Antrim continue to play in the pre-2009 situation would have been a travesty and the ultimate disservice to the hurling. Hurling needs more counties outside the big three winning more All-Irelands more regularly, it needs more competitive games, it needs Galway, it needs Joe Canning in Croke Park in September, it needs Antrim to improve,to build and to be a genuine force in decades to come. The decision taken by the GAA today can only help in the achievement of the above goals. The Leinster Hurling Championship could not have been allowed to continue in it's 2008 state. Kilkenny have enjoyed a deserved and utter monopoly of it for the last decade. Attendances for all games in the Leinster championship are down, falling and with no sign of improvement. In many respects it was dead, it was failing hurling. Tradition is a wonderful thing, it is after all what the GAA is built on, however in this instance it could not have been allowed to kill hurling in Leinster. Hurling is our heritage, it is ours to protect, ours to advance. That is what we must therefore do and extend our interests beyond our own county border. I commend completely the decision that Special Congress has taken today. They have done what is right. Simple.

Whatever else is the case regarding this decision, one thing is for sure - it is not as black and white as this. Either the provincial structures make sense and mean something, or else they don't. This is just another in a long line of measures that is designed to preserve the Munster Championship in its current incarnation.

It must also be noted that at underage level, one could argue that Munster is the weak province, not Leinster. Ultimately the truth is simple - Kilkenny are way better than everyone else at most levels, and until time, tactics or bubonic plague changes that, the Leinster Championship would be uncompetitive. Certainly if teams like Cork and Waterford can't put it up to Kilkenny, there's feck all chance that a very weak Galway team can.

I think you do our county board a dis-service by presuming that they acted out of self interest on this. I remain on the fence, I have no strong inclinations either way, either from a hurling point of view or an Offaly point of view, but what seems clear to meis that this is very much a grey area issue rather than one as clear cut as the post above implies.

I really do hope we draw Galway in the quarters though. I really do.

[Plain of the Herbs]

I don’t think the officials of Offaly, Dublin or Wexford have anything to apologise for in arguing against the motion. After all, they are charged with promoting hurling (and football too) in their respective counties and we are (rightly) quick to criticise when they don’t.

The argument that this will be to Offaly’s benefit is, in my view, also an inadvertant argument to introduce Tipperary to the Leinster championship – or to introduce Toomevara to the Offaly county championship. Both championships may be ailing and suffer from having a dominant team but introducing a cuckoo isn’t going to benefit the natives.

To say if you want to be the best you have to beat the best is fair enough – to a point. That’s why no-one is arguing to remove Kilkenny from Leinster. Kilkenny are the best team in Leinster so it’s up to the other counties to beat Kilkenny.

Look at it this way. Part of me thinks that Offaly’s Leinster titles won in 1980 and the 3-in-a-row of 1988-1990 are devalued somewhat by Galway and Antrim’s introduction, those counties ending Offaly’s interest in the subsequent All-Ireland semi-finals and it’s fair to say they would have beaten Offaly had the faced them ina Leinster final in those years.

There’s no doubt this is to Galway’s benefit. I do feel, though, that their last available excuse for consistent early championship exits is now gone and we will see them perform according to their true ratings in 2009 – again.

[GreatDayForTheParish]

Whatever else is the case regarding this decision, one thing is for sure - it is not as black and white as this. Either the provincial structures make sense and mean something, or else they don't. This is just another in a long line of measures that is designed to preserve the Munster Championship in its current incarnation.

It must also be noted that at underage level, one could argue that Munster is the weak province, not Leinster. Ultimately the truth is simple - Kilkenny are way better than everyone else at most levels, and until time, tactics or bubonic plague changes that, the Leinster Championship would be uncompetitive. Certainly if teams like Cork and Waterford can't put it up to Kilkenny, there's feck all chance that a very weak Galway team can.

I think you do our county board a dis-service by presuming that they acted out of self interest on this. I remain on the fence, I have no strong inclinations either way, either from a hurling point of view or an Offaly point of view, but what seems clear to meis that this is very much a grey area issue rather than one as clear cut as the post above implies.

I really do hope we draw Galway in the quarters though. I really do.

I appreciate what you are saying Lone Shark, particularly with regards to the provinicial structures. They do mean something up to a point, for example in football where the four provinces are all somewhat competitive (compared to hurling) with at least two strong counties in each province. In hurling, at the moment, we have only one competitive province of arguable quality. Ulster is competitive but weak comapred to Antrim, there is no Connaught Championship while we are all familiar with Leinster. An argument against the introduction of Galway and Antrim to Leinster was that efforts instead should have been concentrated on developiong hurling further in their respective provinces. This is a noble goal but one that must be treated with a dose of realism. Who among you honestly think that Mayo, Sligo or Leitrim will within the next 50 years be able to compete with Galway in hurling or that Armagh or Fermanagh will develop to the extend that is required to bring Antrim on further. Indeed will this happen ever? And lets engage fantasy for a moment and presume for a minute that it is a 100%, cast iron achieveable goal, how long would it take? 20 years? 30 years? 50 years? More? And until it is achieved what of Galway and Antrim.? The present system where we risk the very future of the game in these counties? Why should they be punished/treated unfairly purely for geographical reasons? I do not pretend for one minute that this is the panacea to all of Leinster and Galways ills. If it doesn't work I will be the first to admit my opinion was wrong. However at least the GAA will have tried something and to have done nothing would have been far far worse.
And as for the provincial structures, I would be of the opinion that in hurling,at intercounty level, they mean nothing. I would be in favour of a champions league style draw, perhaps four groups of three or something similar. While I appreciate this would have teething difficulties (as proven by attendences at the group games in 2005,2006 and 2007), I feel that it would succeed and remove the predictability of the current structures. It would also make the best use of the few counties that actually play hurling to a high level. This however is a purely hypothetical and useless argument as there is no chance of the Munster Championship being disbanded.

[Lone Shark]

At the risk of sounding like some old school communist, I often wonder if there is any concept of the idea of a long term plan in any aspect of Gaelic Games. Everything that happens in the GAA world appears to be a reaction to a crisis rather than a positive step for the sake of a positive step. Not unlike our national government, the general strategy seems to be to do something at the last minute to attempt to resolve an issue, and worry about the fallout when and only when it happens.

To take this as an example, this seems to be a panic reaction to a series of hammerings of all and sundry by Kilkenny in the Leinster Championship. However nobody seems to have considered how this will affect the Ulster Championship, which I now assume will be stripped of Antrim's presence. For the hurlers of Down and Derry, the Ulster championship presented a realistic goal, but yet one that had to be strived for - the scalp of the big guns. Now that the possibility of taking out Antrim has been removed, how will that effect hurling there?

What happens at underage when a county like Carlow, who have made great strides, now all of a sudden have another big mountain in between them and a Leinster minor title that would absolutely electrify hurling down there - a county which geographically should have been a lot more competitive than they have been in the past. Imagine next year that Carlow beat Wexford in one half of the draw, while Dublin took out Kilkenny and Offaly beat Dublin in the other half. Unlikely, but far from impossible. Either Carlow or Offaly would win a hugely significant Leinster title, while both counties would get a prolonged run in the All Ireland series. Now Galway would be waiting for Carlow in the semi, they'd probably beat both and end up winning a title that they don't need, means nothing to them and would make no difference to hurling in Galway.

What message does it send that provincial boundaries, supposedly long respected and revered lines in GAA folklore, can be adjusted to make things suit? What precedent does that set for county boundaires, boundaries that are already being flexed with creations like Fingal and South Down? The GPA want to make our game professional - in order to do that, Offaly would probably have to amalgamate with Laois and Westmeath to survive, something no-one in any of the three counties would want. We'd all argue against it, but if boundaries are fluid things that can be moved for the "betterment of hurling" then why not again?

How does any of this help the issue in Antrim of getting good challenge games? Anyone up there will tell you how important that is - but this does nothing for that. A special tournament in West Belfast involving Ulster counties playing a series of challenge games against the clubs of Cork, Tipp or Kilkenny would be a good step in the right direction in this regard, with no obvious cost. A three day blitz where Antrim, Derry and Down play Ballyhale, Carrickshock and James Stephens could draw crowds and if staged at a suitable time of year could prove popular with both. Or not, but it would also be trying something - without such huge potential collateral damage.