Wexford v Offaly NHL 11.03.2012

[llkj]

I'd say it comes down to a mixture of things, and a lot of the main reasons have been outlined so eloquently by Kinnitty's finest.

In addition to those factors, I would say that individual player skill is way above what is was in the past now too. Teams are more professional and train more effectively than ever before, which leads to improvement in the basic skills of the game - control and striking, hence leading to more scores.

Also, compare the bás of a hurl now to one from 15 years ago even - far bigger strike area.

Although there were always skillful players in defence, I would say that teak tough hachett men were more common back in the day, 'cause they could get away with more. I am not saying that there are no tough defenders left in the game, but it if that is all you have in your locker as an inter-county defender, you more than likely won't make the teamsheet. makes it a little easier for an attacker, when you know that your head is likely to be left on your shoulders after a game too.

[joe bloggs]

Fair point BNM, but this team would have really laid down a marker against Wexford, and show we are ready to move on to the next level. I think its a run of results that these lads need to bring them on. Antrim next is vital and two tough games, away to Limerick and home to Clare.
If this a a lesson well and good, if it festers in the mind of players and kills the momentum from the performance, which for 63 mins appeared to be very good.
We are conceding huge scores now against all teams and this needs to be addressed as we seem to have good backs, but the system is not working.
Will leave to more knowledgeable hurling people to debate the ins and outs of why?

There was some huge scores put up all around Division 1 over the weekend so it's not as if conceding big scores is the sole preserve of Offaly at the moment. Off the top of my head the following teams conceded these significant scores:

Wexford 2-20
Waterford 2-21
Galway 2-20
Tipperary 2-18
Antrim 0-20
Laois 1-24
Dublin 2-18
Cork 2-17

Some big teams conceded big scores so there may be more to it than saying we are too loose around the middle third of the pitch.

Personally I feel there are a few reasons for this. For example the big wide spaces of Croke Park lead themselves to the proliferation of scores in games there,so added to the excellent quality of the field that could go someway to explaining the high score there yesterday and other games played there. Also with all the strength and conditioning work that players do nowadays they are stronger than ever before. Years ago a player knocking a ball over the bar from midfield from a standing position was seen as a mammoth score whereas now players can easily manage this while even on the run. Factor in the weight of the modern ball and players can score from further out than ever before.

Player's fitness also lends itself to big scores in matches as players are operating at full tilt for 70 minutes now and allowing 5 pairs of fresh legs to be added per team during the course of the game also sees more scoring chances being created during the entire course of a game.

Having said all this it is possible that the art of defending is slowly being diluted and wing backs etc would rather hit 15 clearances in a game and concede 0-04 to their direct opponent than only hit 5 clearances but concede nothing.

It is a great debate to get into though... Why are Offaly (and other teams) conceding such huge scores? Only adults need reply!!

One reason for the high scoring must be the quality of free takers in the modern game. A very high % of frees conceded within scoring range are now converted, much more than say in the 70's and the 80's. The sliothars are now much more consistent than in the past and this greatly helps the free takers.

[Lone Shark]

Of all the counties in Leinster, I've never known any county like Wexford to rub it in after a defeat and my experiences, such as they are, would fall along similar lines to that of Bórd na Móna man. Every county has their share of muppets who let the side down and sadly Offaly is no exception, while any county that has recently picked up a bandwagon following will always have plenty more yahoos than the norm. That said Wexford seem to have more supporters who would lean towards disrespectful behaviour than most and while I didn't make the trip south east yesterday, I'd say with confidence that this one stung both players and supporters alike.

And from a management point of view, I can see why that is no bad thing. The key thing for Ollie Baker now will be to keep that hurt fresh. Make sure that players remember how they felt yesterday and today and keep that with them in every training session between now and then.


In terms of the scoring, I think modern refereeing has a lot to do with it as well. A lot of the current "interpretations" of the rules favour the player in possession. Borderline legal handpasses, charging with the ball, flailing the hurl behind you as you "burst" out of a tackle, all these things play into the hands of the team going forward and thus reduce turnovers. Equally accuracy has gone through the roof. A 75% freetaker used to be a precious thing. Now the average is 85% and plenty would probably shoot over 90%.

[Bord na Mona man]

[ quote="Bord na Mona man"]
That said, maybe an 8 or 9 point for Offaly win would have been dangerous.
Putting Wexford away next June in Tullamore is all that counts. This should help focus the minds.[ /quote]

So I guess it'll be best if Antrim, Limerick and Clare all beat us as well so it will focus the lads minds should we meet any of them in the qualifiers?

Not really. Which would you rather have?
An Offaly team going to play in championship mistakenly thinking they might be 8 or 9 points better than Wexford, or an Offaly team thinking that Wexford need to be ruthlessly put away and not given a sniff.
Which manager has the stronger hand to play after yesterday, Liam Dunne, or Ollie Baker?

Neither should have the stronger hand. If both sets of players are not going to go out the and give 100% in June regardless of previous results and perceptions then as supporters we should keep our money in our pockets.
You can't dismiss yesterdays defeat by saying "sure we'll beat then in June and thats all that matters". Its far from all that matters. Why? Well this team has struggled and struggled hard to get any sort of momentum going over the last few years so if they could win 4 of the 5 games in this years league and at least get a shot a D1 proper hurling for next year and a shot at a league semi this year then that would be real progress and give confidence going into the championship. If you want to get psychological about the whole thing then what is to say Offaly will not doubt their ability to close out the game in June......Wexford could feel they have the upper hand going into the last 15 minutes if its tight?? The bottom line is taking yesterdays game as yesterdays game alone we lost the chance to gather momentum, lost 2 league points and upset our promotion hopes. To divert attention away from these facts by pointing to a game in 3 months time is illogical in my opinion.

Offaly would have far bigger problems if Wexford outhurled us. If Wexford lorded it over us for 65 minutes and we jammed a win with 3 late goals, I'd be more worried.

The one consolation Baker has a great chance to drive home the message that Offaly put away teams. If accounts are correct, Offaly tapped over points when goals were on near the end. Kilkenny and Tipp don't ever ease up, they pile it on hard if the opportunity arises.

Its not simply about whether players are giving 100% or not, its about having the correct mindset.
Personally championship is all the matters to me. I'd struggle to name who won the league in any particular year of the last 10 years.

[Bord na Mona man]

Some big teams conceded big scores so there may be more to it than saying we are too loose around the middle third of the pitch.

Personally I feel there are a few reasons for this. For example the big wide spaces of Croke Park lead themselves to the proliferation of scores in games there,so added to the excellent quality of the field that could go someway to explaining the high score there yesterday and other games played there. Also with all the strength and conditioning work that players do nowadays they are stronger than ever before. Years ago a player knocking a ball over the bar from midfield from a standing position was seen as a mammoth score whereas now players can easily manage this while even on the run. Factor in the weight of the modern ball and players can score from further out than ever before.

Player's fitness also lends itself to big scores in matches as players are operating at full tilt for 70 minutes now and allowing 5 pairs of fresh legs to be added per team during the course of the game also sees more scoring chances being created during the entire course of a game.

Having said all this it is possible that the art of defending is slowly being diluted and wing backs etc would rather hit 15 clearances in a game and concede 0-04 to their direct opponent than only hit 5 clearances but concede nothing.

It is a great debate to get into though... Why are Offaly (and other teams) conceding such huge scores? Only adults need reply!!

I was recently watching some videos of Offaly from the mid 90s and one thing that surprised in hindsight is how many players struggled to reach the target from 50 to 60 metres.

As in the ball invariable dropped around the goalmouth. So either, the sliotar was heavier back then, players hadn't got the same power and fitness, or else the preferred tactics were to try and drop it onto the full forward line.

Nowadays nearly every player who even dreams of playing inter county seems to be capable of splitting the posts from midfield.
In the modern game, great full backs like Brian Lohan or Kevin Kinahan would probably spend their days looking up at long range shots whizzing over their head.

If I were to guess, I'd say the ball spends a lot less time in play these days compared to years ago. A lot of playing sequences involve a puckout, a tussle for possession and someone blasting at the posts if he gets swinging room anywhere within 70 metres of the goal.

[durra1]

Firstly regarding Sunday, it was nothing short of a shocker.

I know it’s only the second round of the league but that kind of defeat can linger in the back of lad’s minds for a long time. Look at Limerick after ’04. That game was won, over, done and what happened was a gut-wrenching. All the more so when you picture the Primates as BNMM so aptly puts it in Wex Park celebrating in the end. God help those of ye who travelled. Stay strong ..

As I overheard at a WX – OY game one time:-
“There’s only two things ever came out of WX , knackers and strawberries – and your no F^&*&in strawberry”

This game is best consigned to the vault of the memory bank and the key thrown away.

Having said that Baker and his staff should be aware of the necessity to coach the side into performing stronger in the final third/quarter given the propensity to fade out in these periods which we all know about. This can and should be done in training.

In regard to the high scoring - I remember the Guru himself Babs bleating (no pun intended) on about this in the ST some years ago. “In my day the wet sliotar couldn’t be pucked 50 yards “ etc.

He had a point when O’Neills produced that very bouncy sliotar a few years back when KK put up that cricket score against Waterford in the AIF – you could see forwards playing the bounce in Croker and it was ridiculous.

Fitness, greater coaching of the fundamental skills (focus on the grip, golf-like analysis of swing patterns) and the contemporary sliotar all play their part. There’s much more core work in training which contributes to the power of swing. Traditionally lads had overall strength and probably more arm/forearm strength from wrestling bullocks, a trade or manual labour.

In regard to fitness alone, that all Ireland Gold on TG4 really showed up the old era of hurling as being very slow and laboured and some fairly poor striking all round. The game today is utterly unrecognisable.

In the Fitzgibbon final last weekend, you had lads haring up the sideline in the last minute of extra time on soft February ground in the Mardyke after playing a semi-final the day before. For those of us who have trained a bit - that’s ironman standard of fitness.

You had great strikers of the ball in any era – John Fenton, Johnny Flaherty, Ger Henderson come to mind – remember Brendan Birminghams point off the left in the 1980 LF from a standing position of his left which was a colossal effort.

These were more the exception than the norm. Nowadays it’s the other way around.

[Toxicity234]

Hi everyone, its my frist post here, So i should introduce myself, Im 33 and from Drumcullen, i being reading this website for years but only started posting today..

i was at the match on sunday and i went to the laois match and i was at the westmeath early in the year, miss the other game (god dame work).
and i went to almost all the game for the last two years before that i was a away travelling for a few years before that.

i have to say i'm happy enough with the way we played in the last 2 games. the result was disappointing on sunday but wexford are miles behind us in hurling terms.
The offaly backs played well, giving away 3-1 in the last 5 mins is frustration, but this back line hasn't played together that much. Wynne at No. 4 look like he could be a good player for us but look likes he not a 100 % confidence playing for us yet.

Connor Mahon in midfield was out hurler on sunday but the more hurling he get hopefull he impose himself on the game and he need to learn to look up and find his man.
I was wondering where is Dylan Hayden??. Mooney did ok when he came on.

i though Joe Bergin and Murphy was good on sunday. work hard and when they had the ball used it well.
Derek Molloy, Shane Dooley & Colin Egan all work hard but are not on top form yet.

Sean Ryan got a rap on the hand early in the second half and wasn't able to hold the hurl corretly afterwards. i was keep an eye on him. he was out of the game after that.
he should have come off earlier but he was trying to stay on. He needed make that call himself. apart from that he has the pace we need to win big games.
Carroll when he came on was ok again. he got very good pace and nice control but if he is going to replace ryan he need to be learn to stay a bit wider, ryan spend a lot of time close to the side line, carroll spend his time close to the full forward. the wexford full back line got to hunt in packs when he came on.
our connor forwards were just to close to our full forward.

the ref call us 5 times for throwing the ball, i thought 3 of these call were wrong.

the last 5 mins will hunt me for a while. its was just because we switch off. not the wexford started play better or that there sub were better players than the that came off. its something that the offaly lads will have to learn, play to the end.

two thing i must finish with,
I though Joe Bergin should have gone to full forward for 5 mins in the second half just to make wexford move there back line around again.
and with 5 mins to go and 9 point up, we should have used our reminding subs. Rigney is out on his feet and a few other were getting there,

look forward to Cooldery now and Antrim after that.

P.S. Hope i haven't made an ass of myself in my frist post.

[Plain of the Herbs]

Firstly, welcome. And you are far from making an ass of yourself with a post like that. I for one look forward to hearing from you. I can tell you that you missed nothing by missing the DIT game.

I wasn’t in Wexford myself, but I did suspect from reading between the lines that Offaly did all the hurling. That’s yourself, and Black Spot in an earlier post, who confirmed that. Losing the way they did must have been galling for all present. I thought the Radio had got it completely assways when the presented gave a newsflash that Wexford had won, then went over to Laois to see if they’d be ‘bet by 10 or 15 points. Offaly scored regularly, and throughout the second half too.

On balance, we were getting a bit carried away dreaming of beating Wexford in Tullamore in the summer, then beating Galway, and going to Croke Park after that. This defeat will focus minds much more now. Getting caught like that must NEVER happen again.

I think it was Bracknagh who made a point that this was a chance lost to gather momentum. That is true, but whatever problems Offaly has, and have, overcoming stalled momentum has never been one of them.

Sunday’s defeat does create one problem though – that of relegation from division 1b! In the current structure, the bottom two teams play off in a one-off relegation playoff. To be sure of finishing at least fourth in the group, Offaly need a result from at least two of their remaining matches. Results in a head-to-head count in the event of teams finishing level on points, and with Antrim beating Wexford in the first round, Offaly MUST beat Antrim on Sunday. Offaly don’t want to be facing Laois in a one-off relegation Final, in some place like Nenagh or the like.

Hi everyone, its my frist post here, So i should introduce myself, Im 33 and from Drumcullen, i being reading this website for years but only started posting today..

i was at the match on sunday and i went to the laois match and i was at the westmeath early in the year, miss the other game (god dame work).
and i went to almost all the game for the last two years before that i was a away travelling for a few years before that.

i have to say i'm happy enough with the way we played in the last 2 games. the result was disappointing on sunday but wexford are miles behind us in hurling terms.
The offaly backs played well, giving away 3-1 in the last 5 mins is frustration, but this back line hasn't played together that much. Wynne at No. 4 look like he could be a good player for us but look likes he not a 100 % confidence playing for us yet.

Connor Mahon in midfield was out hurler on sunday but the more hurling he get hopefull he impose himself on the game and he need to learn to look up and find his man.
I was wondering where is Dylan Hayden??. Mooney did ok when he came on.

i though Joe Bergin and Murphy was good on sunday. work hard and when they had the ball used it well.
Derek Molloy, Shane Dooley & Colin Egan all work hard but are not on top form yet.

Sean Ryan got a rap on the hand early in the second half and wasn't able to hold the hurl corretly afterwards. i was keep an eye on him. he was out of the game after that.
he should have come off earlier but he was trying to stay on. He needed make that call himself. apart from that he has the pace we need to win big games.
Carroll when he came on was ok again. he got very good pace and nice control but if he is going to replace ryan he need to be learn to stay a bit wider, ryan spend a lot of time close to the side line, carroll spend his time close to the full forward. the wexford full back line got to hunt in packs when he came on.
our connor forwards were just to close to our full forward.

the ref call us 5 times for throwing the ball, i thought 3 of these call were wrong.

the last 5 mins will hunt me for a while. its was just because we switch off. not the wexford started play better or that there sub were better players than the that came off. its something that the offaly lads will have to learn, play to the end.

two thing i must finish with,
I though Joe Bergin should have gone to full forward for 5 mins in the second half just to make wexford move there back line around again.
and with 5 mins to go and 9 point up, we should have used our reminding subs. Rigney is out on his feet and a few other were getting there,

look forward to Cooldery now and Antrim after that.

P.S. Hope i haven't made an ass of myself in my frist post.

[GreatDayForTheParish]

That was a lamentable defeat on Sunday and further adds to the litany of losses to crap Wexford teams.

I'm between two minds as to the value or otherwise of the result last Sunday and can see merits to both arguments outlined above. My own feeling is that given our recent history and the psychological effect of same, Offaly as a team and a county can't do with enough victories. A Tipperary/Kilkenny standard, where a defeat may be good to 'keep em on their toes', we are not. Additionally, Liam Dunne is as poor a manager as is on the inter-county stage at the moment with poor vibes emanating from his camp. A nine point loss on Sunday to Offaly could very well have marked the beginning of destabilising events that may have lasted until June 2nd.

That notwithstanding, the defeat as it occurred, is probably the best possible way it could have happened. Put simply, we hurled them off the park for 65 minutes and through a freakish, lottery-odds series of events, they won. By no means was this a demoralising defeat. Analysed rationally, the players should have little problem realising that they, if,if,if,if they perform to their ability in June, they are eminently capable of beating them. And not to let up on the f**kers until the the final whistle is gone. Motivation on the managers part should not be a problem. Conversely, one could argue that by winning as they did, the victory may paper over the cracks in Wexford and give them an undeserved sense of security. We can but hope.


As regards the game itself, I couldn't make it down so it would be remiss of me to offer any analysis of players etc. To address the issue of defence though, we have been conceding high scores this year. By and large, the defence as is being picked isn't light years away from the strongest available. As I've said before, Derek Morkan at wing back would be one of the first names down on my defensive list. His influence is missed in this area and I'm not sure if the team is getting his considerable best from midfield (although he's better there than most other options). Rigney or Horan as covering midfielders sitting in front of the half back line could provide this middle axis with a better balance.

What did those present make of the corner backs? Much talk can be given to a half back line, it is however always worth remembering that corner backs generally mark the opposing teams best forward or close to it - Shane Dooley, Eoin Kelly, John Mullane, Lar Corbett etc. Quality here is imperative and at the moment, it would appear that these two pivotal positions on the Offaly team are up for grabs. Important games ahead to get this sorted and settled for June. Brian Watkins is a loss but we move on.

Briefly, although a good athlete, I can't recall any game at club or county level where Conor Mahon really stood out. Tomas Carroll, is surely capable of flourishing here.

And finally, the placing of Joe Bergin. Full forward of half forward. The summer could fly or flounder on this. Truthfully, it's hard to know. On form, he can be lethal in the full forward line. This is not always a guarantee however. And as durra1 mentioned in his excellent opening post, the memory of his move to half forward against Dublin in the second half last summer lingers. What would I do? Easy. Ask Joe where he wants to play, where he's happy and put him there.

Interesting times ahead, not least of all this weekend. Antrim under Jerry Wallace will be a considerable challenge.

[GreatDayForTheParish]

Welcome toxicity234, nice post.

[townman]

i was sick as most lads leaving wexford park last sunday, yes we were caught with our pants down at the end ( imagine how limerick did feel after 1994)
anyway show most go besides the last 5 minutes offaly were way the better team than wexford and they know that and we will show that in tullamore in june.

POTH what this and laois you have laois on the brain they are a poor side so stop this don't want to meet laois sh.t in a once off game
Coolderry would beat laois.

[weisford]

I came on to see what you made of Sundays game and was suprised to see your references to the Wexford support and I went back on the posts to see why and having viewed 'the comments on another site'' I cant say I am suprised by your reaction.

I only viewed that site once before and am suprised that such comments are allowed and I am not proud that such idiots support Wexford.

I generally confine my self to Wexfordsupporters.com and I did note some posters on both but I must say i would not condone the references from anybody in my county.

Secondly I would view Offaly as keen rivals and I have gone home may times from Croke Park having being beaten by the faithful especially during those great years for you from 81 to 95 I spent 17 years waiting for a win over yu between 79 and 96 . After the match and the disappointment had faded I would be supporting You all the way against all comers .

I was brought up watching the great offaly football tams of the early 70's and again in the early 80's especially so the 70's teams as they represented some of my first memories of all Ireland final days on the TV.

As for sundays match I did notice that offaly did spurn going for goals and opted for points during the second half and it was hard to be critical of the players for doing so given how comfortable you were at the time.

The Wexford support was indeed jubliant at the end and this was mixed with shock at the unexpected out come and also the rare occasion to cheer a hurling moment for us. The previous 65 minutes Wexford received a hurling lesson and as posters have pointed out it could easily have being so much more.

I think you are three years ahead of us in your development and looking at sundays team with the additions from Coolderry the raw material is there. I do think that Shane Dooley could be fitter and when he is in June he will add even more to your team.

Finally will be in Tullamore in june hoping to beat you on the day.

May the best team win.

[weisford]

I forgot I will be up in April to see the Wexford minor hurlers as we are due to play you in the third week in April I think.

Have heard nothing about your minors this year or what talent is comning through.

The minor grade is always the first indicator of some potential future senior players that might emerge over the next five years.

[Lone Shark]

Solid contribution Weisford, and while I'd be the first to admit that I've had some raw experiences at the hands of Wexford fans, every county has good and bad and it's very difficult for the good to do anything about the hangers-on that let the side down.

In terms of the minors, the early signs are that the 2012 crop are a step up on the 2011 bunch, but that would be the least that would be needed. Academy/Schools results from previous seasons would suggest that Wexford should still hold the upper hand at minor this year and Offaly should be a little bit short on where we need to be.

[Ahlethimoutwithit]

Fair play Weisford! i can well understand the jubilance after a win like that, God knows we never delved to deep into the previous 65mins of the 94 All Ireland!

All I'll say is i can understand why some might dislike us for having won numerous games during our 81 to 96 spell v Wexford that we were outhurled in, however some of that commentary on that site and the fact that a) it was allowed and b) it was never criticised by any contributors is sad to say the least.

Anyway, the general feeling is that we are moving in the right direction, from what I have seen , we are trying to keep possesion where at all possible and we have forwards who can score. Derek Molloy seemed to improve his game, can anyone confirm this?

Weisford, if ye come up here and beat us in June, ...............no ....positive thoughts!