u21 match

[Lone Shark]

I think it's a lot more forgiveable from a full back line player, because those guys realistically can't see the whole field ahead of them to the same extent and also the consequences of not getting the clearance away are a lot more severe. I would be of the belief that if Franks (certainly) and Verney (probably) were playing in the half line they'd measure their clearances a lot more.

Oakley I think you're doing a dis-service to - he usually looks to draw a defender and lay off, while Mahon's deliveries do need work. However it's interesting that your description of Brady...

.... a fantastic athlete and fielder of the ball,tough as nails and always give 100%.....

....word for word could be applied to Conor Mahon. I think that it's a fair reflection of both men, Brady perhaps having a better touch while Mahon is faster. I would consider them both to be fairly equal hurlers, though Brady is at his peak whereas it's reasonable to assume Mahon will improve in the coming years. Yet nobody considers Conor Mahon to be an automatic selection the way Brady is.

[lovelyhurling]

Both green & white and LS have made good points but our 3 half backs last sunday. Oakley cannot exactly be classed as an top class hurler but still deserves his place cos of his heart, ...horan had a great game last sunday and was delivering great ball into the forwards but how much of that ball was won by our forwards!walsh and hogan cleaned up because of the poor display of the forwards...Bradys distribution isnt as good as horans but deserves his place..good heart and did well on his man. Considering the pressure the half back line was under, i thought the whole half back line was immense!

Down in college i am good friends with a few kilkenny lads, one of them is on and off the kilkenny panel. they said cody has one philosophy...get the ball as quickly as possible into the forward line. each kilkenny forward is expected to win their own ball, whether its eddie brennan or shefflin..no matter what way it is directed at them. a lot of kilkenny ball to its forwards last sunday was brady-esque. Forwards should be winning the ball sent in, that is expected of them no matter what county your from !!

A load of people txt me last sunday askin what was wrong with brady why he wasnt starting...he is highly rated even outside of offaly!

As for brian carroll complaining about the ball bein passed to him, he is a serious moaner. Saw him in a fitzgibbon match this year, he moaned for the whole game about the ball being given to him!

[Phoenix]

from: Phoenix (also known as Bogman)

As Lone Shark says - I am a huge fan of Kevin Brady. Over the last 3 or 4 years he has been among the best of the backs. I think he was named Offaly Hurler of the Year in 2006. I don't claim to know much about Hurling but I've seen a lot of Offaly & Coolderry games over his career and he always seems to put in a consistent shift to my untutored eye.

I agree with Lone Shark's other points that the young backs coming through, particularly David Kenny, can field the ball so well that Kevin Brady doesn't stand out as much in the Offaly team as before. (Also that he can revert to batting if he's not winning the contest with the forward). He used to be one of the few with any ball-winning ability, whereas there are a good few lads available to Joe Dooley now who can contest possession. Still I seem to remember the manager saying in the last few weeks that Kevin Brady, if fit, would be one of the first on the teamsheet.

I have to admit though that Kevin gets under a lot of his clearances so that the trajectory of the ball is the worst possible for a forward to stand under. Sky high and coming down vertically on the poor unfortunate forward. I defer to some of the hurling gurus on the site for the technical reason for this.

On the other hand he can hit the occasional perfectly flighted delivery to an unmarked forward so he should be given credit for that also.

In general he's such a brave, whole-hearted and (yes) skilful player that he's an example to some of the other lads in his attitude to the game and you can see why he was made Captain. He's one of those players that I'd like to see do well.

[green&white]

I think it's a lot more forgiveable from a full back line player, because those guys realistically can't see the whole field ahead of them to the same extent and also the consequences of not getting the clearance away are a lot more severe.

IMO LS thats exactly the reason we are remaining in the dark ages in hurling and taking these baeting from KK and the likes. In this day and age none of the top teams corner backs, only when under severe pressure, do they lump the ball up field. The way I see it nowadays if no4 has the ball the top teams provide options in a diamond fashion where possible i.e. full back, no 7 and centre back ( sometimes even midfielder). Even most teams revert to the keeper in aneffort to launch new attacks. In Offaly we get the ball, try and take the tackle and then launch it up the field, giving 9times out of 10 no chance to the forwards.

get the ball as quickly as possible into the forward line. each kilkenny forward is expected to win their own ball, whether its eddie brennan or shefflin..no matter what way it is directed at them. a lot of kilkenny ball to its forwards last sunday was brady-esque. Forwards should be winning the ball sent in, that is expected of them no matter what county your from !!

Now to a certain extent I agree that fast ball is needed, but aimless ball does not suit our forwards in Offaly! We dont have the luxury that other teams have in placing big men, that can contest any type of ball in the forwards. They are just not there. We do have fast, skilfull and small forwards:
Carroll, Murphy, Hayden, Dooley, Egan, Slevin, Murray, Kealey, Coughlan, IMO these are some of the finest hurlers in terms of skill and finishing we have had in years.
Cody changed the traditional style of KK hurling to modernise and dominate..
Cork perfected the running game (Newtownshandrum style) to suit their small forwards..
Now I'm not saying we should copy any of thes styles, but we should take elements of both.IMO Hurling today is primarily about possession.. we in Offaly look to get rid of possession by continually preaching ground hurling. Its is completed outdated and needs to stop ( not just at county level). KK and all the top teams, learned from Cork's possession game and took elements of it to suit their hurlers. We need to anaylse the hurlers we have and devise a system of play that counteracts the dominant teams and suits our hurlers.. in other words let try and get ahead of the pack, not coming in behind 5years later!!

[Lone Shark]

I think it's a lot more forgiveable from a full back line player, because those guys realistically can't see the whole field ahead of them to the same extent and also the consequences of not getting the clearance away are a lot more severe.

IMO LS thats exactly the reason we are remaining in the dark ages in hurling and taking these baeting from KK and the likes. In this day and age none of the top teams corner backs, only when under severe pressure, do they lump the ball up field. The way I see it nowadays if no4 has the ball the top teams provide options in a diamond fashion where possible i.e. full back, no 7 and centre back ( sometimes even midfielder). Even most teams revert to the keeper in aneffort to launch new attacks. In Offaly we get the ball, try and take the tackle and then launch it up the field, giving 9times out of 10 no chance to the forwards.

Just for what it's worth, I don't think aimless horsing the ball down the field is the right thing to do ever, but the further back you get towards goals the more you would forgive it since the consequences get more severe. I'd always prefer to see a half back look to find a team mate and ride a tackle if necessary, I'd be wary of a corner back doing it, I'd hate to see a full back do it unless he knows he won't lose the ball and a keeper doing it would be grounds to be substituted.

[Treasurer]

Decent delivery from the backs is more often than not the difference between winning and losing. Sure there are times when pressure dictates clearance without picking out a target, but they should be minimal. Too many times you see backs getting all the credit for keeping the ball out, with the forwards getting stick for not getting to near impossible balls.

[baz]

Offalys problem nowadays is that the ground hurling is not been used and coached properly .Remember thats how we were sucessfull in the first place .We havent used it properly in years .We cant be like cork or kilkenny with the running game ,we are not physical or fast enough for that type of running game .Kilkenny were never able for our ground hurling .One reason 9main one at that ) BIRR are so dominant is their stick work ,which was and is still coached in to them let the ball do the work .ball can travel faster than you can run .look at kinnitty for example in first round ,everyone was impressed with them because of their play ,which was ground hurling and their stick work ,which as proven every time leads to better team work .
Have asked county and former county players ,with all the talk about tatics and ground hurling was it ever put into practice on training ground .I have yet to hear one that said they did over the last couple of years .A major problem is that you take Carroll for example he wont listen anyway .A couple of times has told management to fuck off when told of a switch (thats a fact before people give out ) .Also hayden ,he will not do the hard yards in training ( if ever get chance watch him closely ) .I watched on a number of occasions training for birr leading into all ireland and to say he was a disgrace was an understatement .He like carroll will look great against the likes of laois but when they are really needed you will hardly see them .yet in fairness to 5 backs they did .
The real point at the end of the day is that when we were competitive ,we didnt do what others were doing ,we didnt give a fuck about them .We still shouldnt and we should get back to what pissed them off and couldnt cope with .Our own style of hurling which we havent done in years .
ps I think the extra week will prove to be a blessing in discuise for the u21 .W E BEAT WEXFORD IT WILL BE A HUGH LIFT TO MORRALE for THE COUNTY .Win that and we will take leinster (easy talk to the dubs outside of parnell ).for the likes of bergin and molloy for example they would come on a tonne .As molloy said last year sick of losing

[Plain of the Herbs]

At the risk of being boringly repetitive, I feel the adherence to ground hurling is killing hurling in the county.

Regular readers will know my opinions on this, but for the benefit of the newer contributors – read on.

Offaly perfected their ground hurling game in the 1980’s when nobody was playing a possession-type game. If you gave the ball away you were going to get it back ten seconds later because the other team would give it back. In the early eighties probably Wexford were the only Leinster county who played a solo running game but they didn’t complement it with support of the ball-carried and it frequently failed.

Ground hurling is based on letting the ball do the work and hitting the ball upfield without fuss. But there’s more to it than that. It is utterly dependent on the receiver anticipating the stroke and getting out in front of his man.

It’s also dependent on an incredible workrate as the team not in possession need to work their socks off to recover the ball. This is why, in their heyday, Offaly seemed to do so much more hooking and blocking than anyone else – because they were in possession so much more than any other team.

Brian Cody is a proud Kilkenny man, a driven manager and he would have seen his side suffer at the hands of Offaly during that period. I feel that on his appointment he changed Kilkenny’s style to that of a more robust one because he saw Offaly wouldn’t live with that.

What also changed was that conditioning and fitness increased considerably, started by Clare and later advanced by others. This meant teams could run all day and could perfect a supporting role to the ball-carrier, who no longer was forced to turn over possession when under pressure, but who could lay off to a team mate instead. This also brought diagonal lines of running into play with which forwards could unlock defences.

The consequences for Offaly were that they were no longer able to force teams into turning over possession and take their scores with the economical style that served them well for so long. They continued to play what we call ‘grand’ hurlers, fellas who stood at 5’9 who could hurl off both sides but who couldn’t catch a ball. It’s really only this year that the county team are picking more robust players, for example Mahon, Molloy & Healios who as Lone Shark correctly pointed out yesterday probably wouldn’t have got a look in a few years ago.

Lone Shark is also correct to say that possession dictates the game now. In fact, a players first instinct should be get the ball into their hand, either from the ground or in the air.

It’s probably my biggest hurling bugbear to see someone hit a ball away on the ground only to be collected by an opponent lurking ten yards upfield who promptly sends it back over the bar.

There were a number of reasons for Offaly’s decline. The first was that the 1990’s team all grew old together, Mike McNamara’s appointment led to the retirement of some around the thirty mark who still had a contribution to make but couldn’t make the commitment the Clareman expected, and some hurlers took the easygoing attitude of their predecessors when they were in no position to do so.
But I feel the main reason was because they didn’t grasp the nettle that hurling was changing and that Offaly’s style was redundant and needed a major overhaul.

In recent years some hurling clubs in the northern end of the county’s hurling region are moving towards a more possession based game. Kilcormac reached a county final last year with a team almost all of whom were over 6’ tall and who could carry the ball. Shamrocks and Ballinamere are others moving in that direction.

Now I’m from the old school myself and I would hate to see Offaly adapt the Newtownshandrum style. However it’s not so much a question of aping what others are doing but hitting the ball away indiscriminately is too costly nowadays. Also, I feel it’s lazy analysis saying that lack of adherence to the code of ground hurling is the problem.

In order to advance the game, coaching is going to have to consist of catching under pressure, handpassing, support play and diagonal lines of running, though there is still a place for ground hurling drills to be used to improve first touch.

[Phoenix]

Couldn't agree more with you, POTH. I would add to it that Offaly, over the next few years, will have to go further along the modern road and pick more midfield / forward players for Championship play who can win the ball or at least contest it 50-50. The senior forward line is still lacking consistent ball winners. James Gorman is a good example of a player coming through who can stand under a puckout and has a good eye for the ball. I don't think you'll see Brendan Murphy and Brian Carroll picked at 10 and 12 in the future although they may get their places elsewhere on the team.

There's still a place for small players but it helps if they have blistering pace. Alan Egan, for instance, wins a lot of possession by being out in front.

[Bord na Mona man]

One notable point of last Sunday was that Offaly are now showing sings embracing the new style of hurling that Cody, O'Grady and co have developed.

Ger Oakley's performance at centre back is an example.
On several occasions on Sunday, Oakley took possession and drove forwards, most of the time his strength saw him break the tackle of the covering Kilkenny players. I almost did a double take seeing an Offaly defender playing in this fashion.

At 31 years of age, he is now getting to play a style of game that suits his best attributes; strength, bravery and battling qualities.
For most of career, Oakley was expected to whip, flick and lash at every ball that came his way - Offaly style. On Sunday you wouldn't have guessed that striking wasn't his best attribute. He wasn't forced to make pressure clearances in tight spaces.

The old Offaly way of clearing over the shoulder running backwards is now becoming redundant. As mentioned, the skilful wristy 5'9 player who can strike well off both sides is trumped by the 6 foot 2 player who may totally one sided and limited skill wise but can break a challenge to the clear the way for himself, or gave the lay off to loose colleague.

Less Offaly players struck the ball on the back foot on Sunday than would usually happen in such a fixture. Offaly clearances did go further up the field, most of them weren't won, or weren't winnable though.

The traditional Offaly way was for a defender to get himself out of trouble via a great piece of stickwork to get an unlikely clearance in. As the Offaly skill levels dropped and the fitness of opponents increased in modern times. Offaly matches became blighted with Offaly defenders slicing, mis-hitting or half hitting clearance not far up field because of the pressure they were under.

These days most good counties clear their lines via rehearsed set pieces, where the defender under pressure will dish the ball to a free teammate. It is so well honed that it looks telepathic. Watch Cork where Murphy, O'hAilpin, Gardiner etc. almost don't need to look up when transferring possession. The giver and receiver are almost synchronised.

Hurling is far less freestyle and more set piece driven these days. Offaly are one of the last counties to play freestyle hurling, if that is the correct term to describe it.

I was often struck by what Babs Keating said about Offaly when he lashed into them in 1998.
He said something like "There's a strain of individualism in this Offaly team". Perhaps the Tipperary style of hurling wasn't a good fit with that era of Offaly player, but he had a certain degree of validity to his comments.

Offaly matches tended to be a collage of many individual deeds of superb skill by Offaly players. However, many's the time Offaly lost such matches where the other team playing more frugal, solid hurling, performed as a unit and had a good game plan.
Offaly were lauded for the individual pieces of skill by players, but often these nice cameos didn't actually translate to anything beyond the admiration of the crowd.

Take the 1999 semi final with Cork. Offaly lost by 3, but the pundits heaped praise on Offaly for their display of skill and panache.
The statistics are a bit hazy now, but I think Offaly scored 11 of their 16 points from outside the 45. Some real beauties from Johnny Dooley, Pilkington and Troy. Whereas Cork scored 14 of their 19 from within the '45. Frees and tapovers from Deane, Seanie McGrath and Ben O'Connor. That was the problem, there were no marks given out for doing it the hard way, no bonus points for virtuosity. A sterile but effective Cork game plan prevailed.

The Cork 1999 team stand out to me as the least accomplished All Ireland winners of recent times. But neither the record books nor the scoreboard record this.

[Bord na Mona man]

On Sunday, funnily enough, the ground strokes worked out fairly well for Offaly. A couple of times an Offaly defender who was about to gobbled up and managed to clear the danger with the quick whip upfield. However, if hours and hours of training time were spent honing this skill, then I'd be sceptical as to the merits of it.

On the other hand, most Offaly players would still be a little flakey on controlling a pass or short puck first time. One short puckout by Mullins was fumbled and foostered by the Offaly defender. Essentially it meant that Mullins could not risk a short puckout after that. I'd much rather be confident that every Offaly player can get the ball into their hand first time, every time than be able to perform than occasional crowd pleasing ground stroke.

[Bord na Mona man]

On Kevin Brady.
I think he tends to strike the ball in front of himself and hits it from underneath.
Notice how he leans back a lot too during his stroke, as it is a upward lifting one.
This generates a lot of top spin, meaning his clearances rise and fall very quickly and don't always travel huge distances.
Also the lack of of a back swing means he doesn't get maximum power into this strike.

To be fair, he rarely gets hooked as he doesn't left much of his hurley behind him. However whenever he has time and space, I'd like him to "piledrive" the ball. As in turn sideways, turn his shoulder towards the target and wallop the ball from behind.

[gutless08]

BAZ. Just regarding your comment about brian carroll telling management to fuck off a couple of times.
could you explain this in greater detail. if that is true its a very bad state of affairs for him and the management. has carroll delivered on the big day for offaly against a kilkenny or even a wexford?

he certainly likes the limelight, interviews and hype but i think he is an overrated county player. sulky and not near the finished article.alas his free taking let us down sunday not to mention his unwillingness to take on a strong but slow tyrell when isolated. any thoughts?

[baz]

Hes done it a couple of times that i know of ,once against limerick in tullamore and the other against (i think kilkenny) last year when asked to move positions .Best quote iheard was after that game he asked HORAN in the communitty school where his best position was and HORAN replied on the fucking sideline .Told j pilkington a while back that he was the roy keane of offaly hurling .
Regarding ground hurling no one is saying hit every ball on the ground .But if a player is under pressure and the ball is on the ground ,a well coached player will drive a ball further or take pressure off better ,than getting into hand and not able to strick it at all .Im talking about certain circumstances .The point of doing certain amount in training is to improve stick work and eye to ball coordination .Any one in offaly that says we shouldnt do any at all ,shouldnt be let near an offaly hurling pitch ,90% of hurling supporters in offaly would agree .Everything is relative as you still have to win 50-50 ball no matter what style of hurling .We lost aginst cork in 1999 because politics on sideline came into it ,ie. its a fact that mulhare & murphy over ride what bond wanted to do in terms of switches .Bond had them flying going into that match and i remember being at their last training session where bond made them do 1.5 hour of ground hurling ,best training session i ever saw .Politics ,not style of hurling cost us that match .Still best hurling match of the 90"s .

[duckdiggler]

We were never in complete control of the ball like KK were when we were attempting to get it under control.

Two to three touches or a fumble ( like for the short puc out )and suddenly two KK players are all over you. In contrast even before the match I could see the complete & instant control the KK hurlers had on the ball when they were doing their mini puck around session.

That obviously comes from practise and repetition over years but is something that every (inter county) hurler should be able to improve indidually with a ball agin a wall every day !

I do believe there is a time and place for ground hurling still, and that is where we lost a lot of possession to Kilkenny , lads were trying the second , third touch , trying to rise it and lost out / hustled out of it , when after first attempt they should have let fly. I also think that KK don't like it and is as good a reason as any to keep it going. Let in the timber ( or synthetic material in Horan's case ! )

I take the point though that modern play might dictate that the ball is returned with interest , but i would argue that a forward, especially a small forward, is meant to be on his toes , out in front of his man,and has to win his mini battle for the team by beating his man to the ball. Ball flying in / whipped in low should suit smaller forwards to enable them get primary possession. Again controlling the ball in the forwards cost us a lot of potential possession and possible scores. A man got to the ball first , if he had controlled it right away he'd be able to beat his man or win a free, instead it was arsed up and a KK player got a flick and got it out or horsed tthe player out of it.

As for routines for clearing and so on , I think that only by settling a panel of players, and by being picked in the same positions repetitively, can we get familiarity and organisation. Even though I felt the backs played well some were only new to that position in this team in very recent times, which is obviously not great planning, and also Cleary was up at full forward, and looked lost after a while, and should be a back still in my opinion.

Its a young panel in the main, so they should be capable of being together for the next few years and learning together. Lets just hope they are quick learners !!