Leinster club Championships

[llkj]

Wanted to get people's opinions on a couple of points in relation to the club championships.

1. What is your opinion on a clubs 2nd or 3rd team not being allowed to represent the county, if they win their grade?
2. What is your opinion on non-clubs (amalgamations - eg: south kerry) being not allowed to represent the county, if they win their grade?

My opinion on question 1 is that the team that wins it should be able to represent the county, as they are the county champions and have earned the right. I believe that it take away from the value of the competition if there are teams that are playing in the competition but have not won the competition. take for example, Rhode intermediates this year. It was a fantastic achievement by the group of players to win the intermediate c'ship. Some of those lads will never play senior and will never have a chance to represent their club outside of the county again, yet for some reason, they can't. instead, Brigid's will stand in for them. For the live of me, I can't see any logical reason why this is (obviously the same eligibility rules as apply within the county will still apply). This example is repeated nearly every year within Offaly, especially in the hurling, where we have had some years where a team that was knocked out in the semi-finals of a competition ends up as the Offaly reps, while the lads who won are penalised.

on point 2, it is a bit of a trickier one, as you need to have a level playing field. However, if the county lets an amalgamation compete in their club championship then surely the best for the Leinster competition is to have the winner of each county championship as the rep?

[Lone Shark]

Disagree with you on both counts I'm afraid.

(1) On the first point, you are creating a need for a lot of counties to change their systems. Not every county lets second string teams play with first strings of smaller clubs - more commonly they have "reserve championships" that run side by side. Secondly a club could decide to regrade lots of players and put more focus on the second side than the first. Alternatively, it could be distorted by clubs who have big name frontline players injured. If we say hypothetically that Niall McNamee fell victim to an injury next year, Rhode could regrade him as intermediate. Then if the seniors get knocked out before he comes back, he's available for a Leinster campaign - which would be unfair.

(2) I don't agree with divisional and university teams, and while I know the latter are allowed, it would be better if they weren't in my opinion. Ultimately it's for each county board to do what suits them best. Kerry's system works for Kerry, but these divisional sides represent as many as ten clubs in some cases. Waterford decided to let WIT into their hurling championship for a while when only Ballygunner and Mount Sion were any good, but when the likes of De la Salle and Lismore got a bit better, they kicked them out again. Laois introduced divisions for a while and got rid of them, as did Mayo, while there is no logic to UCD, UCC and NUIG being allowed to take part, but yet Queens, UL and Maynooth aren't. It's just too haphazard.

[llkj]

LS, on point number 1, I don't believe that either of your arguements hold much water.

You stated: "Not every county lets second string teams play with first strings of smaller clubs - more commonly they have "reserve championships" that run side by side."
What does that matter? Each county has an intermediate and a Junior championship. It is up to the individual county to choose who they let enter their championship. My point is that the winning team, should be allowed to enter the Leinster club.


You stated: "Secondly a club could decide to regrade lots of players and put more focus on the second side than the first".
I was waiting for someone to raise that arguement, so I deliberately didn't mention it initially. That could happen each and every year to every club in the country that has more than one team. Do you honestly think that any club is going to do that? Take Ferbane, do you think that they are going to say - lets take 5 decent seniors next year and regrade them and only play them on the junior side next year, as we really want a crack at the Leinster club later in the year. Just not going to happen and I believe that you know that to be the case too.

The Leinster club is a bonus for winning the championship, but the internal championship is the real reward for any team. There are very few clubs in the country that can take their eye off the local prize, while thinking about bigger fish to fry later in the year.

Regarding the point about injuries - Of course, their are always going to be good players who are capable of playing at a higher level regraded for a number of reasons - injury, travel, family, work. That is a fact of life. However, the GAA have a rule that allows teams to regrade players. If this is done correctly and within the rules of the game then it is not an argument as to why the 2nd team are not allowed to enter the Leinster club championship. Repeat - no team is going to sacrifice the quality players from their first team, just because their 2nd team (and 3rd team in St. Rynagh's hurling this year) have a chance of playing in Leinster if they win their championship.

[theman]

I think its a stupid rule to be honest. If a senior teams reservse team win the Junior or Intermediate championship they should be allowed play in the Leinster Championship. Theyve won their right to play in it.
On another note i dont think the team that loses the final could pick themselves up after losing. I know from Clonbullogues defeat in 2004 to Tullamore in the Intermediate final that they found it very hard to get up for the challenge of Leinster. They would of rathered be playing senior the following year rather than play in a Leisnter championship that they shouldnt realy be in in the first place. Likewise Croghan will find it hard to get geared up for thier Leinster campaign.

[Lone Shark]

I deserve that for answering too quickly when I as distracted by something else. Allow me to try again.

On the issue of second and third string clubs being allowed in, I think you're being a little naive when you say that clubs will automatically field their best team at the first level. Every club has players that are capable of playing at a higher level, but don't, for reasons up to themselves. For example Ger Rafferty is hurling some great stuff at centre forward for St Rynaghs juniors- does anyone honestly believe that every forward who played senior and intermediate for the club this year is better than him? Of course not, he's hurling at the level he wants to play at. Does that mean that St Rynaghs are minding players? No - it means that players make their mind up themselves.

Of course St Rynaghs would love to win an Offaly SHC, but imagine for a moment a scenario where their intermediates are eligible to go into the Leinster JHC - realistically that would be a much better chance of a medal, and a possible place in Croke Park. Of course Dinny Cahill or whoever will pick the best team available to him, but a couple of lads might take the decision that they'd prefer to play at a lower level - and the club can't force them to play at a higher grade.

Of course the vast majority of clubs would play fair - and I'm sorry to single out Rynaghs there, they were just used for illustrative purposes - but a group of players in a club could take a decision by themselves and thus distort matters. Thus I agree with you when you say "the team" wouldn't, but players might.

Secondly, there is the issue of the romance of small clubs making it to Croke Park, while no club feels as strongly about their second team. I've no doubt the players on the Rhode Intermediate panel put just as much effort into this year's campaign as did those of St Brigids, however outside of the panel, the success would have been welcomed, but not enough to bring huge joy to the village as a whole. After all, Rhode this year have won the under-21 championship, the Intermediate championship and the Junior B championship, and yet if you asked a lot of casual GAA members if it was a successful year for the club, some might be equivocal. If you asked them in a year when the Seniors won the Dowling and the other three teams all lost, 98% of people would say yes. The club's first team is the main focus, and that's what these competitions were designed for - not second string teams from huge clubs.


In an overall sense, I think the Leinster council has to make an overall rule. I would be all in favour of divisional teams in Offaly in both football and hurling, but that's a decision for Offaly to take - it's not for Offaly to decide what should happen in Leinster. To give the obvious example here, in 2006 Arles Killeen, who have never won a senior title in Laois, lost the championship final to Ballyroan Gaels, who were an amalgamation. Now no doubt some people in Arles Killeen club felt hard done by, but that decision to allow amalgamated clubs was taken by the Laois county board and voted through. Arles Killeen club had their say, and either they voted for it or voted against it and had the option to make their case.

Arles Killeen represented Laois and played Tyrellspass in the first round of the Leinster championship - now Tyrellspass had no say in whether or not to allow amalgamated teams into their competition. So unless Leinster votes to approve it, the Leinster club championship should remain just that - a championship for clubs.

[llkj]

I understand your points LS, and the example of Ger Raff with Rynaghs. They are doing nothing wrong there at all and he is fully entitled to play junior hurling, as you point out.

However, I still dont see what your argument is why they shouldn't be allowed to represent Offaly. If they win the county junior final, I just don't see why the group of players that win the county final, are not going to be allowed to represent their county.

[Lone Shark]

I understand your points LS, and the example of Ger Raff with Rynaghs. They are doing nothing wrong there at all and he is fully entitled to play junior hurling, as you point out.

However, I still dont see what your argument is why they shouldn't be allowed to represent Offaly. If they win the county junior final, I just don't see why the group of players that win the county final, are not going to be allowed to represent their county.

Because a bigger club like that will always have one or two players that could play at a higher grade if they chose to, like Ger, which is all very well. However on any given year, they could decide to put some effort into that team, a few lads could collectively decide to grade themselves downwards to join the one or two already there, and suddenly you have the bulk of a senior team. Again, it's not a club decision, but if a few lads take the decision, then it's a huge leg up.

It already happens too often even within counties - second string teams will make a big push one year, then get relegated the next. It's not too long ago we had the huge furore in Offaly when Tullamore gave a walkover in the Intermediate football championship so as to protect the interests of the junior B's. If it could happen for one game, who's to say it wouldn't happen for one championship?

[llkj]

I believe that you are completely wrong about the reasons why that game was not played against WI that time. I remember it was discussed at length at the time and the general word was that it was for a host of reasons why the fixture was not fulfilled, but protecting a junior b team was not the reason. In fairness, I don't think Tullamore were that stuck to win a junior b championship that they would send their intermediates back to junior.

Getting back to the main point of my initial question, I really don't feel any of the arguements listed here substantiate why a clubs 2nd team can't enter the leinster club championships. I'll put in a call to Central council tomorrow and have Rhode intermediates (or St. R or Kinnity juniors) taking their rightful place this year!!!

Good night and good luck.

[Lone Shark]

I believe that you are completely wrong about the reasons why that game was not played against WI that time. I remember it was discussed at length at the time and the general word was that it was for a host of reasons why the fixture was not fulfilled, but protecting a junior b team was not the reason. In fairness, I don't think Tullamore were that stuck to win a junior b championship that they would send their intermediates back to junior.

Getting back to the main point of my initial question, I really don't feel any of the arguements listed here substantiate why a clubs 2nd team can't enter the leinster club championships. I'll put in a call to Central council tomorrow and have Rhode intermediates (or St. R or Kinnity juniors) taking their rightful place this year!!!

Good night and good luck.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2671

It was discussed at length - and the only reasons cited by anyone, were (i) Oxegen, and (ii) Holding back players for Junior B, which turned out to work out well for the club. I'm not saying either of them were right, but they were the only ones listed. I remember from writing about it at the time that there was no other reason given to me by the PRO either. The club declined to comment. That didn't stop members of the club from getting annoyed at me for writing about it and "telling only one side" but then that's a separate issue.

Now I'm not saying there weren't a "host of reasons" as you put it, but if there were, they weren't cited in the discussion at the time, or made available to the public.

As for the substantive point, I do think this makes it perfectly well - given the right circumstances, clubs will happily sacrifice teams up the line for a chance of success at a lower level - but we do seem to have different viewpoints there.

[corner back]

For what it's worth I think the idea that each club gets one shot at Croke Park is a good idea. It's a huge day for small clubs like Cappataggle, etc. to make Croke Park. Nobody wants to see Portumna's second team there instead.